**Patron Saint of *Mystical and Divine* Romance: Jennifer L. Armentrout**

Jennifer L. Armentrout needs no introduction, but I dare you to try to stop us from giving her her due. She is the author of over SEVENTY titles, including the legendary Blood and Ash series, announced to be adapted for TV by Amazon Studios last year. In case that’s not enough, she’s also the creator (and self-pronounced wallet) of ApollyCon, one of the hottest YA and adult fiction author and readers events in the industry. ApollyCon is coming up on its 10 year anniversary event, expecting 1000+ readers for 2025. Jaw-dropping accomplishments aside, Jen is jarringly approachable and kind. You can catch her sharing goofy dog (and alpaca) photos and commentary about deadheading her astounding garden alongside cause-driven content ranging from fundraising anthologies to hints on where her beloved PA, Malissa, dropped freebie copies of her books around airports they’re flying through for an impromptu reader treasure hunt. It goes without saying that Jen supporting the Patron Saints of Romance project is right in line with everything we’ve come to know about her character — but don’t think that stopped us from screaming our fucking heads off when she officially joined in.
Can’t get enough of JLA? Same. Don’t miss Book 4 of the Flesh and Fire series, *Born of Blood And Ash,* dropping August 13, 2024. For even more:
Website | Goodreads | Instagram | Facebook | Apollycon
#1 New York Times and #1 International Bestselling author Jennifer L. Armentrout lives in Shepherdstown, West Virginia. All the rumors you’ve heard about her state aren’t true. When she’s not hard at work writing. she spends her time reading, watching really bad zombie movies, pretending to write, hanging out with her husband, her Border Jack Apollo, Border Collie Artemis, six judgmental alpacas, two rude goats, and five fluffy sheep. In early 2015, Jennifer was diagnosed with retinitis pigmentosa, a group of rare genetic disorders that involve a breakdown and death of cells in the retina, eventually resulting in loss of vision, among other complications. Due to this diagnosis, educating people on the varying degrees of blindness has become of passion of hers, right alongside writing, which she plans to do as long as she can.
Her dreams of becoming an author started in algebra class, where she spent most of her time writing short stories….which explains her dismal grades in math. Jennifer writes young adult paranormal, science fiction, fantasy, and contemporary romance. She is published with Tor, HarperCollins Avon and William Morrow, Entangled Teen and Brazen, Disney/Hyperion, Harlequin Teen and Blue Box Press. Her Wicked Series has been into a feature film by PassionFlix. Jennifer has won numerous awards, including the 2013 Reviewers Choice Award for Wait for You, the 2015 Editor’s Pick for Fall With Me, and the 2014/2015 Moerser-Jugendbuch- Jury award for Obsidian. Her young adult romantic suspense novel DON’T LOOK BACK was a 2014 nominated Best in Young Adult Fiction by YALSA. Her adult romantic suspense novel TILL DEATH was a Amazon Editor’s Pick and iBook Book of the Month. Her young adult contemporary THE PROBLEM WITH FOREVER is a 2017 RITA Award Winner in Young Adult Fiction. Her novel STORM AND FURY was chosen for the 2020-2021 Florida Teens Read List. Her adult fantasy FROM BLOOD AND ASH was the 2020 Goodreads Choice Award in Romance. She has also written Adult and New Adult contemporary and paranormal romance under the name J. Lynn.
*She is the owner of ApollyCon and The Origin Event, the successful annual events that features over hundred bestselling authors in Young Adult, New Adult, and Adult Fiction, panels, parties, and more.*

JLA ON Apollycon, BoRn of Blood and Ash, AND Alpaca WRangling:

"there was this scene that I wrote that even I was a little bit creeped out writing it because I was kind of, I remember thinking...if you were a god of death, what would you be able to do?"

Patron Saints of Romance Collection Conversations Transcript

Danielle with Violit Hour: JLA, Jlaw, thank you so much for being here. I really appreciate you taking the time to sit down with me.

Jennifer L. Armentrout: And thank you so much for rescheduling it. It's just been a crazy couple weeks of getting books and things like that.

My god, of course, I cannot even imagine what your day to day looks like. Maybe that should be our first question actually. How was your day? What did you do? What is going on? What has like led you to this moment?

Well, if it was a normal span of time, it would just be really getting up, fucking around the internet pretending I'm working for a little bit, which I probably do more than just for a little bit. And then I would write, and since it's summer, I try to make sure I stop working by between four and five, because I like to go out and I like to like what they call deadheading flowers, which is what keeps them, because people always ask like, how do you get your flowers to look like that? And I'm always like, if the key is cutting off the spent blooms. And so that's, and it's very mind numbing and it, you know, it's relaxing because of that. Like I sit and listen to some podcasts and that's what I do. But we have been in like this holding pattern with virtual signing books. Like some of them showed up last week and then today the, the bulk of them showed up. So after I got done working and right before I came for this, I was trying to unload as many of the boxes as I could because it is so many books that we only could put so many in the, what we call the Apollycon garage. And then, so we have to get them unboxed before we can move the rest of them from the main garage over there. So this is a little bit of a different type of day.

That is incredibly physically demanding. I feel like nobody understands that side of it.

Yeah, anytime you have to move or unload books that are hardcover, you are in pain. Like you are in a lot of pain.

Completely. And do you have your team around you, like a core team to help you do a lot of that stuff, or does most of your team work remotely? How does that work?

Well, Malissa, who is my assistant, she lives like maybe 15 minutes from me. And then Jen, who handles the shop and the virtual signing, she lives in Maryland. But all the books were supposed to show up last week, and they didn't. So then they said they would call us because those books come by freight, like an actual freight truck, because there are so many of them, they will only bring a freight. So they were supposed to call us to let us know they were coming. I get a text message from Jen this morning telling me that, hey, I just got a call. They're coming this morning. So of course, Jen can't just magically appear here. So Melissa came over and she was here for when the delivery happened. But because it's a freight, they don't want to ever come up the driveway. So even if you have room for them to turn around, they don't want to.

So they always unload the books on pallets at the bottom of the driveway. So then you have to get like all the boxes off the pallet into vehicles and drive them up. So my husband was helping her do that. But luckily it did not rain. The last time this happened, it rained. And luckily it was like just sprinkles, but it was like, are you kidding me right now?

No, that is actually a living nightmare. Like, that is horrifying. How long is your driveway?

Mm -hmm — it's really long. And that's why they can't really see it from the road. I mean, it's long enough that my ass is not walking up and down that driveway. I mean, it is very, I mean, I would say it's, I think there was probably like an acre in front of our house. So it's probably about an acre, an acre left or something, or maybe like, I think, I don't know what the length of a football field is. It seems like it's longer than that to me, but it's also on an incline it goes uphill. So it's like, it's so it's not even so it's just like doubly terrible. But they are safe in garages now without them being rained on. So that's always a good sign.

I mean, all's well that ends well like that, but that is a wild way to start your week, I'm not gonna lie. my gosh, well, can we talk a little bit about your property and the farm and the animals and all that good stuff?

Yeah, so I live in West Virginia and you know, one of the things when you live in places like this, you can get like a lot of property and it not cost like, you know, a megaton of money. But when we bought this house, you know, it came with 15 acres and I was always like, you know, I would love to have a little bit of a farm. And I say that, and I said that as someone who never in their life had any type of livestock. I've had dogs and cats, but like nothing like that. I wasn't a part of, I don't know if when you went to high school, if you guys had like future farmers of America, I wasn't a part of that. Like literally no knowledge or experience in anything farm related. So when we moved here, I think after, by the end of the first summer, I think Mike had got a couple of sheep. Like he knew someone who had sheep. So we were first, no actually, yeah, sheep and two goats. And at first we were looking for like, you know, low maintenance, which goats are like assholes. So it's like, you know, I will say our goats are not really mean to us, but they are mean to other animals. Like they are, and to themselves. They just fight for no reason. Like, at all. They just are constantly, you know, just being a goat. But on the way to the airport, Dulles Airport, there is an, like an, an Apaca petting farm. And every time we go to the airport, come back, Mike always like, do you want to stop? And I'm like, no, because at that point, like I have always been obsessed with Apacas and llamas, but I never actually saw one in real life, like met one. And I didn't want to because I had heard that they're also assholes. And I was like, well, I don't want this to ruin my obsession with them. So I was on a book tour that fall. And when I came back from book tour, Mike was like, by the way, I got, we're picking up or, or they're, we're going to go meet this farm that sells a pack of us. And, and I think he had kind of arranged for us to get six of them because they are like a herd animal, like sheep are. So you just can't take one or, you know, you could do just two, but it's not recommended. And so that's, so I was like, what are we supposed to do with them? And of course, like they're all older. So, I mean, they're kind of set in their ways. And so, you know, I got like a, like a rush learning of how to have a penis, which pretty much is literally doing nothing because they are, you know, the Apacas, somebody had told me that Apacas are like cats and llamas are like dogs. And the reason why you hear more stories about llamas, like spitting in front of people is because they are actually more friendly. They will, they will interact with people more often. Apacas on the other hand, are the ones that are not that friendly. They're, they're definitely more skittish. And like the only time they want your attention is if you have like carrots, then they're like, I'll come to you. Or it's the summer and they want to be sprayed down. So like they, and when it gets really hot and humid, they like their bellies to be sprayed. And so then they'll get all up. That mean they'll be leaning on you and everything at that point. But any other time, no, no, they don't want to have anything to do with you whatsoever. Like. So you just kind of watch them from afar.

Not a bad life, honestly, though. You get to see your favorite animal, you get to have them lean up on you a couple times a year, and then the rest of the time they're basically taking care of themselves. my gosh. I mean, you are really living my dream. It's very like Martha Stewart of romance and authorship adjacent vibes, and I am completely obsessed with it. I am you prior to getting any of the animals though, where I'm lik…it would be great. I would love a farm. I have no idea how to take care of livestock whatsoever, but it seems...

Yeah. Well, it's like a, it's like, it's like a, one of the, you know, how we all have like these dreams that we never intend of ever like, you know, falling through on. And I feel like that's what I always kind of had with that. Cause I, you know, cause also I was like, I don't know how to take care of farm animals. And I don't think Mike had like, he didn't growing up. And I think there for a while, because we have a race track, horse race, back here and so you know every so often you hear about like some of these horses that you could take like into a rescue and every so often he would be like you know about getting a horse I'm like I would love to do a horse rescue however those are not animals that you can just put out in the pasture and they do their things they need to be brushed daily they need to have their house cleaned like we have no idea how to do that and do we have the time to do that?

Yeah.

But still, I do want a donkey. So I do want one of those. Because, you know, they're kind of like a horse. And I don't think I could be wrong, but I don't think they require as much like constant attention. But we also have like, surprisingly, a lot of coyotes here. And so the donkeys will they don't like donkeys. So I mean, they won't go near usually if you have donkeys. And also llamas are used as guard animals against coyotes because llamas are so much bigger and they will stomp another animal to the point, yeah. And it's terrible because meanwhile I'm over here like, look at the dog. And that's not a dog.

I have heard about donkeys. I hadn't heard that about llamas, but I've heard that people have donkeys specifically as like a guard animal as well, like they can kick and fight and...

Thank you. Mm -hmm. Yep. Yeah. And usually with the coyotes, I mean, not clone wood, we haven't had them like get into like, I mean, they will get pretty close. But like, the I think right now the Apacas are big enough that they're kind of like, you know, like, you know, and beforehand next door, like, it's not really next door, but kind of there was a farm like sits over there and they used to have like a crap ton of cows.

Sure.

And when there was cows there, the coyotes really would not come into like this area because again, cows are just too big, but they move. And there for a while, there was nothing there. And so that's when the coyotes really started getting closer. But now they have a horse farm there. So that also seems to kind of keep them back a little bit because you know, because the bigger the animal they don't like to mess with unless they're like, you know, obviously very hungry. But you'll hear them at night sometimes and it is the eerie sound. I think you will. The first I did, I've never even again before I moved here and keep in mind I grew up in this area, but it's funny here. It's like you go 20 miles either different direction. It's like a totally different land. And I never saw a coyote, never even heard a coyote. And like the first god month living here, it's at, usually you hear them mostly at dusk. And that's when they start moving. And I'm standing outside and I had just gotten Apollo and he was a like little wee baby. And I'm standing by like this area where there was a pool and all of a sudden I hear like this yipping noise that almost sounds like a kid. Like a kid going, yip, yip, yip, yip. And I'm standing there kind of like, huh, these kids are really loud. And little Apollo, he's like looking around. I'm like, wait a minute. There's no kids nearby. Like at that time, there was no kids that lived around this, you know, that I would hear them. And so I'm like, what the? And so I go grab the dog and I'm like, either there's some kind of animal coming or I don't know. I'm, you know, cause also we live in an area surrounded by like civil war battlefields. And so I'm like, okay, I'm about to see some ghost soldiers. Cause again, like I think like the rebel yell, they is that weird like sound. Yeah. And I'm like, well, like what the hell I go inside. I'm like, Mike, there's some stuff outside. And you know, by the time he's like, goes out and chat, there's nothing. But.

Holy shit.

So I'm sitting at the computer playing like all these animal sounds. And then I get to coyotes and that in the yipping. So the yipping are usually like the adolescents and usually it happens when like they're being called to come back to the pack. So like, I mean, it usually means the pack or the den is moving. And so it was, it is that sound is that's how you, cause I didn't even think like, how do you tell that sound apart? from a different, like from a dog, yeah, you can tell it apart. Like they don't bark the same way. And, but yeah, the first couple of times I heard it, I was like, this is so creepy. Yes, yeah.

No, that is fucking terrifying for sure. Honestly, the little kid sound of it all is definitely the scariest part.

Yeah, I mean, that's the only way I could describe it would be like a little kid making a high -pitched yipping sound like yip, yip, yip. And I'm like standing there like in the world. And honestly, it was like one of those moments where I'm like, wait a minute, there's no kids that live here that are that close by. And that's when, yeah. And so, yeah, but they, when they get going, it sounds like, cause even a handful of them will sound like dozens of them. And you can hear them as they start moving across the fields and stuff. And we try to catch it, record it when it happens, because it's a cool sound, but at the same time, it's very eerie because it's always at dusk. It's usually at the beginning of summer and towards the end of fall is when you really hear it. Yeah.

So when you're traveling, is that sort of a culture shock going back and forth? Like you're on the road, there's a Apollycon, like there's places where you're in these major cities, and I imagine it's like constant noise and stimulation.

Mm -hmm. yeah. yeah. Especially when you go to places like New York City or Los Angeles or Dallas, any big city it is, because we don't have anything like that here, except for probably you get to Charleston, West Virginia, or Huntington. But even there, it's still nothing like the bigger cities. But we also we aren't very far from DC. It takes us about an hour and some odd minutes to get to DC. But it is. It is definitely like when you're in the cities, you're just all the noise and the buildings. I remember the first time that I ever went to New York City, I just, I couldn't get over how tall the buildings were because it's like we see mountains here. So it's like, but you just have these buildings that seem as tall as the mountains. But. And I know when people who come here who are from big cities, they actually have sometimes trouble falling asleep because it's so quiet. Yeah.

I was just going to say we moved here, I'm in like a rural area of Colorado, from New York City proper, and I could not sleep for days because it really, like the silence is its own noise.

Yeah. Yeah, I mean, yeah. And I will say, like with New York, after being once I'm there for a couple of days, I do get used to like the constant like blaring of horns and just background noise. But here, I mean, the only thing you hear is like insects and animals. You know what I mean? And it's and it's and it can be and also it's so dark. Like it is pitch black outside and that can be even that can be crazy. Like just even growing up here sometimes you're like, I can't see shit at all. But yeah, I will say though, the thing that I do find interesting is that no matter where I go, even when I've traveled overseas, there's always like parts of it that just look like here.

Haha!

Like, you know, the strip malls, the highways, it does not look that much different than what we have here, except for sometimes, obviously, we have more green, you know, grass, if it's like Texas or Florida. But I remember one time we were driving through Florida, and I was just like kind of looking out the, you know, like the windows, and I'm like, this is just like driving through West Virginia. Like, it's just, you know, strip malls and just long stretches of nothing. And...And I just find that to kind of be interesting.

Definitely. I know it is interesting just to see like the world is small in so many ways and massive in so many ways as well. But to be able to find those familiar elements is really, I don't know, it's an interesting feeling. So speaking of a Polycon, you maybe not just wrapped, but recently wrapped, is it the ninth annual this year?

Yeah. Yes, and then the next year is the 10th year anniversary. That is, it's insane that we're, you know, like it started just from like a little tiny signing with a little after party, you know, to I think next year our events start on Wednesday, like Wednesday evening. So it's Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, Saturday, and then, you know, the brunch on Sunday. So that's, you know, I've always had plans to grow it to a convention.

That is incredible.

Because that's the only way that I can really make Apollycon self-sufficient is, you know, and it's like, you know that saying you have to spend money to make money, but with events, it's almost like you have to, you have to basically offer more stuff to be able to justify what you have to charge for it to make it then become self -sufficient and, you know, for it to pay for itself. You don't ever make a profit.

Mm -hmm. Yeah.

That would be nice to break even, but like, you know, my goal is for it to pay for itself, to eventually get to a point where it's paying for itself. But it's a lot of work, but it's a lot of fun. I mean, right now we obviously are like in like the heavy initial planning stages for next year. And our years overlap in planning. So like when it gets close to like 2024, all of us have to like remind ourselves, okay, wait a minute. Are we talking about 2025 or 2024? Because we start having to do stuff for the next year. And then, you know, coming up soon, we'll be already into 2026 planning. And then by the time you hit 2025, it's 2027 and 2028 that you have to actually start planning for.

No, I mean, it's a huge, well, you do such an incredible job of like, number one, it just seems so immersive and you do have those offerings that I think, you know, are more robust than maybe your average convention of that type or anything. But there's also the angles kind of like in the vein of spending money to make money where you really are allowing access for influencers, for instance, to be able to go and you're taking care of the room and board and some of those pieces. And I was reading up about your author scholarship as well. I mean, it's just, it seems like you and the team are really oriented to.

Mm-hmm.

Number one, having people have the best experience, but number two, also opening doors to people that may not have been able to go otherwise.

Well, and so way back in the day, way back in the day where romance times still existed, RT convention, which was also RT Magazine. And so the actual, you know, who knows what actually paid for what? I think it switched. I think at one time the magazine paid for everything. And then as magazines died, it was a convention. I had started doing like this contest where I used to call Write Your Way to RT. So it was for aspiring authors who hadn't been published yet to, you know, for basically I would pay for their way to go there, like their registration fee and like their hotel and then, but I would never judge it because since I felt like I was the one that I shouldn't be the one doing it. So I would every year get a bunch of different authors to agree to read the submissions. And because I always believe like as cheesy as it sounds, like paying it forward, like if you're in a position that you can help other people, you know, I always feel like you should try your best to do that. And obviously when RT shut down, it was really hard to do something like that again because most events right now, they're definitely not industry, target to industry. And I want it with a Apollycon, like eventually, for it to be similar to RT where you have like a reader track and then an industry track. But we've always tried to, whenever we had authors in the past who wanted to attend, but we know that it would create a bit of a financial hardship. And once we become aware of that, unfortunately, sometimes you're just not made aware of that because people don't want to talk about that for obvious reasons. We would waive table fees or hotel rooms, things like that because, again, it's like not everybody. And it doesn't even matter where you're at in your career. People could be very successful, but they have kids. They have other responsibilities. So we've been wanting to do something like that and also wanting to make sure that it was targeting those who, it can be more difficult for them to attend these events just because of systematic and, you know, just institutionalized like blocks up for them. And one of the authors from last year, Elizabeth, she had mentioned to one of my people who worked for me for about, you know, offering, you know, something for like marginalized authors. And so we kind of combined those two ideas finally officially together. And we was really able to do it officially this year because I brought on more staff this year. So it was like, you know, beforehand, there wasn't many of us and it's like everybody was like, you know, pulled to the limits of what they could handle. But I'm glad because it's, you know, like a lot of people always like that, you know, whenever you hear about the lack of diversity at signing, you always sometimes hear that excuse. Well, you know, we invited them, they didn't show up and it's like, first off, listen to how you're phrased. Like, like, like, but also it's like, yeah, because look, it's like, you there's many, many reasons to why people who are marginalized may not even feel comfortable applying for this, you know, and or like applying to attend the signing. And it could be something for other things where it's not intentional, right? But like it's I feel like you have to, you know, you have to make yourself like make it known that this is something that's important to you so that people do feel comfortable, you know, even just signing up to attend the event. And even though like we do everything possible to make sure the lineups are diverse, there's always room for improvement and there's always more that you can do. So we are hopeful that this is also going to help us definitely improve.

I mean, that's phenomenal. I think it's just, you hear a lot about people that are like, we're learning, we're trying our best, but I think really like putting pen to paper and formalizing something like this is incredible to see. And it must be so fun to go through all the submissions as well and sort of get to know authors that might be new to you or, you know, explore those new spaces.

Yeah, and it's something that, you know, it also kind of broadens like that art horizon. And also, like one thing I do, and I've always done with my staff, like over 50% of my staff are people who are diverse. And it's because, you know, it's the same thing in publishing, right? Starts at the top. It's like, you know, and that's the thing, like, and because I know there's gonna be things I'm gonna miss because I don't have those lived experiences.

Yup.

So something may happen that I won't necessarily, especially when you talk about things like microaggressions, like you're not, you haven't lived those experiences, you're not going to catch them as quickly. You're not going to, and so that's one of the reasons why I was like, I need people who have had those experiences so that, you know, I can, you know, that I'm, that I'm able to learn, but not at the expense of somebody else, you know, which, you know, always it's like, it's great. You learn something, but it's terrible when it came at the expense of somebody else experiencing something. So, but yeah, so we're excited about this year. And hopefully once this year's scholarship is done, we have plans because it's in the process of being like official in the sense of it being like a, what do they call it? A 10 something, a nonprofit type of thing so that we can maybe get some donations to it so we can offer it to more people so that we can do more and more people we'll be able to open it up for.

That's amazing. And I love the concept of having the industry track and the reader track because there is so much to be learned on either side and you get everyone together.
And readers like hearing about the industry. Not every reader, but when RT used to do them, we would always have readers in there. Because they were just like, yeah, I'm curious to how do you guys come up with your ideas. And it's not just the generic answer to that. It's actual, well, you have people on the panel who are talking about how they do plotting and brainstorming. And so I think a lot of readers are often interested in that.

I feel like I always want to know sort of like what the inspiration is or what's behind it But also like and maybe this is just me or a smaller cohort but also all of the like economics behind it and I think so many really passionate readers are interested in like how do I? Support my favorite authors and sometimes that does get lost.

Yeah, and I, yeah, like, I, like in my reader group, I will, you know, be very transparent sometimes about like, you know, like how, like, you know, how pricing works and, you know, what you have control over and what you don't, depending on how you're published. And I know a lot of authors, readers are always shocked because they, they don't realize, this is gonna sound terrible, but they don't realize that like, yeah, authors, you know, unless you become, unless you have, if you're traditionally published, you have a very nice advance. And then you earn out that advance, or you earn nothing in the back, but they still wanna keep doing contracts with you. Or if you're self -published, selling a lot or selling consistently. Because sometimes when you share, it's like, well, the royalty is actually about a dollar. It's like, you're making a dollar. It is, you know, they sometimes do get very shocked by that because when you really think about that in terms of like a livable wage, it, you know, many, many authors do not make a livable wage based on, you know, several, you know, several factors. But I do think it is interesting to kind of sometimes clear up some of those miscommunications or misunderstandings of what it's like, but also they love to even see how like, how does a book get decided to be put into what format, you know, what it'd be like. Or, you know, hey, you can only have so many pages in a certain book, like paperbacks can only do so many pages and then you can no longer publish in that format. So like things like that they do, they always find interesting.

Yeah, I find that fascinating. There was something too I had fallen into, I think it was on threads about returning books and how authors can actually lose money on a sale if you're returning a book. And I'm like, those are things that I just think most readers aren't naturally cognizant of because how would we know?

I mean, I have like this weird, not weird, but I'm always like 50-50 sometimes on when we share this stuff publicly because, for example, I never once in my life thought about returning a book. Like, didn't even know you could do that. Didn't even know you'd get your money back. But now, 100 other people now know that you can do that. However, on the opposite side of that is, people may not realize that when you return a book, especially, and I don't even know if there's a timeframe, but from what I understand that when it happens, it's pretty quick because I think Amazon, especially if there's a time limit, but if you're within that time limit, yeah, that comes back out of the author and it comes back out of the publisher. So it's not just an indie author thing. It is also a publisher thing. So for example, when you're with a publisher and you have print books, they hold for returns. So they hold a percentage for returns. I don't know if it's like 20 % or what it is, but because they know that either A, bookstores are going to return what they don't sell because that's another thing people don't realize is that bookstores do not hold stock indefinitely. They have very limited shelf space. So if your book is not moving, they will, unless they worked out a special deal and it's like a special edition where they cannot return them. They're gonna return those books and if people come back within a certain amount of time and they return them, yes, it comes back on the publisher and the author. And so I do think there are probably some people out there who just don't think of that. Like they think, I bought it, they got paid for it. But it's like, okay, well, think about this for a second. When you go return something to Target, it's not like Target just made your money and they keep it, right? They give it back to you. So like, and so it's like, at least with Target, it's you're not affecting the employee that you bought it by from. It's the company. But in publishing, it is the publisher and the author. So it's a direct, well, you know, you had it. And keep in mind, like, if you get paid for it, and depending again on Amazon, like their timeframe, like what it is, you can have it deducted back out if you or if you're in that weird period where you're sitting on a cusp of a royalty period, yeah, you can end up having it taken out the following month. And there has been authors who have gone into the negative, especially those who are kind of like ebook only a lot of times I see it happen, because they see it then more often that. And they're now in negative for the next royalty period.

That's just wild, you know, it's heartbreaking in the sense of obviously as a passionate reader, right? Like these stories bring us so much joy and I think majority of the readership not to speak for everybody feels very grateful to you and other authors for like bringing all of this, you know, joy and world building and like everything else who are alive. So the sort of factors that disincentivize an author to sort of say like, I'm going to put out another book or like I'm going to continue on that path are brutal to hear.

Yeah, and I don't think the vast majority of readers do anything like this. But it's just something that, again, like I said, I'm always torn about when people talk about it, because I'm like, ugh, are we actually showing more people that this can be done? But again, I think a large percentage of those who do it probably were not aware that.

Totally.

Yeah, there is a negative effect of this. And then the other group of them who just don't care, I mean, they just don't care. Their sisters can be no changing that.

Yeah there’s no caring either way. Okay, I want to be mindful of time and I can't let you go without at least asking one question about the upcoming book so we know your next release is coming out and that's the closing title for Flash and Fire, Born of Blood and Ash.

Mm -hmm.

It is coming out of my birthday, so this feels like a very personal gift to me, so thank you very much. And that is August 13th. Is there anything that you can share about the book or maybe even like dates or places to keep an eye out for teasers and sneak peeks, all that good stuff?

Happy birthday. Yeah, so, and by the way, my birthday is tomorrow. So we are, thank you, we are summer babies. So yeah, so, you know, teasers, like I really, we really don't start doing like the big teasers until we get closer to release. Obviously we'll share an excerpt, like two, like I think it's like the first.

Happy early birthday! I love it.

Sometimes it's just the first three chapters, but if something kind of crazy happens, sometimes we'll do more just to kind of avoid like, this is a little ignorant too, to end it there. But I am very excited for readers to read this. I will say that it has been probably the hardest book for me to write because there was a lot that I realized I needed to cover in this book.

Yeah. Hahaha.

But also for what Sera went through in a Fire in the Flesh and how that is dealt with in the final book. So you have to do that balancing of addressing internal issues, but also moving the plot forward. But also, the one thing too about this book is this book sets up in a way certain aspects of the Blood and Ash world. And you do, you will learn like why Sera’s name is not known and why she is not known. You will see why she, you know, why Ash Nyktos is the one who wakes up more often than her. Because you know, she is, you know, I think when I first started with a shadow and the ember or the flesh and fire series, I purposely made in the very beginning to show the similarities between Poppy and her so that you could see. But then as flesh and fire progress, it's like you could then see how much Sera really isn't like Poppy. And while Poppy kind of has definitely a way more optimistic look on things, Sera does not. And Sera is, she's probably more like Pass in a way where, or Malik, where it's,she's definitely able to turn off emotion and but also struggles when to know when to do that when she has to because if she doesn't something bad is going to come from this but you you you you see that like you see where kind of her strengths are and what her weaknesses are. You know, you also are gonna see a lot more of Addis. I know a lot of readers really were like liking Addis and like wanting to see more of him. But yeah, there's a lot, there's a lot happens in this book. And, you know, there's gonna be definitely some tough moments, I think, for readers. There's gonna be moments where I feel like you may be rooting for what happens. But at the same time, it's almost like a train wreck that you, or it's almost like, you thought you wanted to see this happen until you saw it and you saw like the long reaching consequences of this. And, you know, so there's, you know, I'm interested, like, I feel like when people read this book, they're gonna know exactly what I'm talking about because, you know, we always like when, I think our characters are like super strong and kick ass and can do all of these amazing things, right? And so, but I sometimes approach it too. But what if they did that? Like, what if they, and you know, I think of like, what was one of the Marvel movies, one of the Avengers, where I feel like it was the, I don't know if it was the Iron Man one or one of them or Civil War, where it was like, it pointed out all the terrible things that happened every time. The Avengers got into a fight, like all the, like, you know, a side blowback onto everybody. And so it was something like that that I always thought about when you were dealing with these all powerful or almost all powerful beings, we may be cheering than doing something, but it's like you have to sometimes step back and be like you know like you know and yeah and so I think it so yeah so there's a lot in this book but it's a lot of romance a lot of questions are answered for people and I think it's going to make everyone hopefully even more excited for Primal of Blood and Bone because you see like the like the the groundwork for it.

God, I'm so excited. I cannot wait for this. Yes.

And another thing too, I will say is kind of as, you know, morbid as I am sometimes, you finally get to see in this book what Kolis is actually, what the true Primal of Death is capable of doing. And there was this scene that I wrote that even I was a little bit creeped out writing it because I was kind of, I remember thinking like, if I, like if you were a god of death, what would you be able to do? And, you know, that's not just like, you know, touching someone and them dying, right? Or like, one of my favorite scenes ever in TV is the episode of, I don't know if you've watched Supernatural, where Death is, that guy bumps into him and he does this and you see the guy in the background having a heart attack. Like, you know, like I feel like that's what we know, right? But that was such a badass scene as he's in that song, Benny, whatever name is, Death.

Yeah.

But, it is a creepy scene that I wrote and I feel like it's like you finally see what some of these Primals are truly capable of doing and you know, I feel like you'd be frightened of this, like you'd be scared of this person, like of what they're capable of doing. And I'm smiling as I say this, there's nothing wrong with me.

Which is why we love you so much. I was gonna ask if you have time for just one more question. How do you kind of decompress once you finish a story, right? Because I imagine whether it's you're writing a scene or a chapter that has creeped you out or just, I mean, you're living in this entire world that you've crafted. I imagine that's not like the end and now I'm, you know.

Is it? Yeah, I think it really depends. Like sometimes, you know, it's like, especially when you get towards an end of the series, there's sometimes like these bittersweet like feelings about it. But when you start dealing with like, I'll admit, like the like the creepy stuff or that kind of stuff like that doesn't like I'm kind of like, I'm more sort like proud of myself from writing for writing that. But like when you're dealing with like, more the emotional stuff, like especially with Sera and you know dealing with what she's experienced and what she will experience. You know I don't think you are aware of its effects on you like I don't think that's something you're aware of until like maybe like days later because sometimes those scenes can take days if not longer to completely write and get it the way you want it to be. That you may be like not like you know, like maybe feeling almost depressed or just feeling exhausted because you're really often having to pull that from yourself. Like you're having to pull those emotions or those feelings, you know, putting yourself in that situation, like how would you feel to make it real, to make it sound real? And I do think sometimes it can get to you after a while. But I mean, it's, you know, that's why I like doing things like then kind of like decompressing by going out into the garden. I mean, you know, because I sit all day, like I even enjoy vacuuming. Because anything that's basically anything that's monotonous and requires no thinking, you know, the bad side of that is I usually won't read a lot during this time because that is thinking. But I'll look for things that require like no, no thought behind it. And I think that helps like kind of detach you from some of the subject matter that you're writing. Because there's been other books I've written where they were harder topic to have in there. And so I do think you would have to have that way to decompress and detach yourself from it. Before I was a writer, what I went to school for was psychology. And so working, even the short period of time I worked in that field, it's like you learned how to basically, separate, it's like this disassociation. Like you learn, like you have to disassociate from what you're dealing with at your work or anything like that because you can't, you know, take that stuff home with you, you know, kind of situation. And I do think depending on what you're writing, sometimes that can, you know, feel the same way that you kind of have to shut that off.

Yep. I imagine that psychology background helps you so much just in like character development and motivation and I mean it's human behavior.

Yeah, yeah, and it's psychology, you know, and also I try to tell myself this to justify all the money I spent on stuff that I don't use. So it's, yeah, so it's like, yeah, I'll say, I'll believe this. But I do think it does because one thing you have to understand is very few people in the world are bad, that are born bad. Let me say it that way. And some people are, you know, like what they would consider the bad seed, but that's extremely rare, just like narcissistic people are extremely rare. A sociopath personality is extremely rare. If you probably thought you've met a narcissist, you probably in reality have met somebody with narcissistic tendencies and not an actual disorder. Luckily for everybody in the world, these are rare disorders. But you learn that people turn out the way they do for a reason. And so a lot of times when you're crafting like the villain, it's like you don't want them just to be the bad seed, right? Or somebody who just has like, you know, something that's out of their control, like something like a certain personality disorder where it's gonna make them do certain things, but it's, you know, they can't help it. So it's like, you know that there's for every thought and action, there is a reason. And it's building that, like, why did this person become who they were today? And it's like with, I'm not gonna get into too many spoilers, but like with Isbeth from the Blood and Ash world, it's like, you know, it's like you feel for her when you learn what happened for her to become like this. But there comes that point where you have to be like, I empathize with you, but you're now making these choices and these decisions to continue doing something that now has, you know, overshadowed what you have suffered because what you're now doing is it's greater than that. And so I feel like for me, it's like you do make the villains a little bit more realistic. You and when you are humanizing them, you're not humanizing them for you to feel sorry like now. That's the right word. But for you to like them but mostly for you to emphasize. Like I do think there's a difference between feeling sorry for someone and understanding how they became this way. It doesn't mean you agree with the action, but you understood how it got to this point. And, you know, and, you know, so it's, there is a lot of psychology that I think unintentionally that I rely on to do that, which I think at the same time too, it does make them more, you know, I don't know other like I hate to use this word again, but creepy when you because they become more realistic to where it's like these you see where how people can turn out the way they do and then you know how we always see like stories right and then in the news where it's like if just one person did this or if somebody did that it could have prevented all of this. And you're kind of like seeing that obviously on a much more deranged scale in fiction. But that is something that we see all the time, where it's like the sliding doors, where it's like if something else would have happened, it could have stopped this.

Sure, sure, sure, yeah. I imagine too, and I don't know if you can say anything related to Amazon Prime optioning from Blood and Ash, but I would imagine going through the process, and if you can't share a place, we would love to hear, going through the process of casting, right? And thinking about who's gonna embody those characters and sort of like all of those layers that you may have written into the story or you may have just you know, in the back of your brain somewhere that sort of like will inform so much of their mannerisms and just every element. How do you approach that?

Well, you know, right now with Amazon, like it's it we're always in that period of just holding and waiting. Things are really tough right now. I'm learning in Hollywood across the board. You know, it hasn't, I think, been a good couple of years for everything. So I feel like a lot of things are kind of like in these holding patterns. But like, you know, with casting, I, you know, with most of the deals that I have done, especially when I have what they call executive producer credit. It's more so like a pat on the head for them to say, look, we're gonna give you this credit and this will mean a little bit more money on the back end if you ever get to the back end. It usually never happens. But basically you have to pick and choose your battles with that because at the end of the day, you sold your rights to those books, to this studio. You absolutely have next to no rights over that material at that point. That doesn't mean that you can't like die on a hill if you want to. And there are certain things with my book that I will die on a hill of. And usually those are things that I believe that readers would be very adamant about. But also knowing that most readers, like they want to see everything, everything recreated but knowing that that just can't happen. But I know there are certain things, right, that they would want for it to be that way. The key comes down to is when you have a show runner, you know, a writer, and usually they are the head writers in a production company that really enjoys what they've read of yours, right? First off, you want to make sure they all have read your stuff. And believe it or not, usually, you know, they don't always do that. Like, you know, they hire people who do. So you, you, you once you, I feel like you can tell, like when you had a writer who has read these books back and forth, like, and even with chaotic good, who is like on the production side, like when I've meet with them or met with them in the past, like I do sometimes feel like they know more about the books than I do. Like they will bring up stuff where I'm just like, I forgot about that. And because they do a lot of the analytical stuff, they do a lot of the research on how fans or readers interact on things. So they do that. So that, I think, is where passing really comes in good, is when you have a team of people who they know the book. So they know what makes the characters fit. So then it just comes down to finding the right actor who really can portray, you know, those emotions. And especially when you have characters who, you know, have these hidden agendas and motives, like where certain things, like you have these little red herrings that are dropped in books, right? You can't have usually the same type of red herrings in TV or film because either would be very obvious. So a lot of times it comes to, comes down to just like facial expressions sometimes of the actor that, you know, the audience sees that they're kind of like, wait, wait a second. I don't know, you know, why did they look that way? So, and that's something that when you have a really good team of people that you do feel more comfortable with than handling it. Like I do think with casting, what they usually do is, you know, you'll see sometimes chemistry reels, like when they cast like the two leads, they will sometimes share with you like the chemistry reel. But by that point, they've already made up their mind. They're asked for your feedback, but in reality, it's always like paged in a way that you can tell. They've made up their mind on this already. So hopefully you get on board with it. That's kind of it. So.

Yes! I mean that's so interesting the way you're phrasing it. It's just like, which hills are you gonna die on? Like, you know, almost everything is gonna be the battle, so like, which... which battle are you waging?

Yeah, you have to learn to let things go because it's like, I feel like it's like you have that one almost like get out of jail free card where it's like, you know, you only have that one card that you can really become a major pain in the ass over because, you know, they don't want you not supporting it, you know, and there has been, you know, authors in the past, which God rest her soul, like Anne Rice always sticks in my head, like first she was like very openly like I don't support this and you know and you don't want the author the creator of the material coming out and being like you know I did not agree with this I do not support this because you know unless the the series gets super lucky and completely surpasses the existing readership and then it just doesn't matter and that's rare for that to happen so like you don't want like you don't want to be working against yourself basically so it's like you feel like you have that one thing that you can really, you know, go to town on and being, you know, and kind of, I don't want to say making those threats, but like being like, I'm not gonna say I agreed with that kind of thing. Right? Yeah.

Yup, yup, pull that EP card just like, all right, this is what it says. well, thank you so much for sitting down with me. I have to say this is, I mean, potentially the highlight of my year, I've got to tell you. Any big plans for the birthday for tomorrow? What's your day looking like?

No problem. No, I need to write and then, like, it'll probably be beginning of signing books, again. So it'll just be, I mean, I feel like once you get this, I don't do anything for my birthday. I haven't done, I feel like I haven't done anything for in years. Like, it's just like, I'm like, you know, it's just another day. And it's kind of funny because you're like, I'm going to be what, however old tomorrow. And then I'm like, am I not really that old already? Like, you know, you start thinking about that. You're like, you know, it's like, it's, so yeah, I won't probably.

Yeah, yeah, no, I know. It's like you get to a point where you just start losing track, but I will always take any excuse to have a baked good. So like that is my orientation for a birthday for sure.

Yeah, I used to always get like, was it from Dairy Queen, the ice cream cake? Yeah, and then I think I developed like a very minor like lactose thing, so I can't eat a lot of ice cream. But the only thing I want is the crunchy caramel stuff in it. Yeah, like I will peel apart the cake just to get to that. That's like, it's the best part. And I don't know, somebody told me they actually sold just that.

Yes!

But I've never checked that out. It's the crunchy, but it's the caramel is something that's on the back of it. Maybe it's a fudge, but it's the best part of that whole entire cake.

I am intimately familiar with this crunch and I bet you they sell it and I'm gonna do some research after this and figure it out.

Yeah, somebody told me that like they sell it and I'm like, okay, that's information. I need to just also forget learning immediately because that's all I would be doing. I would be that person in Dairy Queen. Like, can I just have the crunchy fudge stuff?

Take it in the cup, take it to go, see you around.